Let’s talk about Hulu’s latest unscripted hit — The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. You’re obviously not the first platform to see the potential of a show set in Utah or related to a branch of the Church of Latter-day Saints. But this show has really taken off, and quickly. How did it get on your radar?
This is actually an interesting story. There was a woman who years ago ran a blog called Possessionista. It was basically: Here’s where you can find what people wore last night on The Bachelor. While she doesn’t do the blog anymore, we had stayed in touch, and so she texted me and said, “You have to do something with these swinging Mormon TikTok moms.” She sent me an article on one, and I was like, “I know nothing about this, but I love every word in that sentence.” I said to our team, “All right. Let’s go get these women.” Once we filmed some tape on them, we knew immediately these women were stars. Whether you knew everything about them from TikTok or nothing about them, it was compelling television. And yet we still had no idea, once cameras were rolling on the show, how compelling it would be.
Do you think Mormon Wives just put their social-media celebrity on a new platform, or has this been a case of reality TV once again transforming people into major stars?
It certainly helps that they had millions of followers on TikTok. But I think the old adage is absolutely true: TV still creates stars. If it were as easy as just taking people who had millions of followers on TikTok and giving them a show, we’d have 500 shows and they’d all be hits. It’s almost like separating real gold from fool’s gold. Just because they are great in short-form content doesn’t mean you can do an entire ten-episode run of 42-minute episodes.
Should we expect an entire Mormon Wives universe, similar to what Bravo has done with The Real Housewives? Have you already started talking expansion?
We developed this internally, so we own the title. We can do The Secret Lives of … whatever we want. We are looking at it, but we definitely want to be thoughtful about how we do it. You have to give credit to Bravo for a two-decade-old franchise that it built very slowly and methodically, and we would want to follow the same format. And it doesn’t have to be just the secret lives of a religious subculture. It could really be anything.
Have any of the cast members started pitching you their own spinoff shows yet?
They haven’t, no. It’s all brand-new. But we’ll see. As we’ve seen with Real Housewives and The Kardashians, you can still do spinoffs and have the mothership. But these women are very, very smart, and just like the Kardashians, you don’t get there by accident. I don’t think they’re looking to do anything to become overexposed. They want to do everything slowly and methodically and have everybody win.
When I’ve talked to your boss, Craig Erwich, he has explained that he doesn’t always draw a bright line between shows for ABC or Hulu. To him — and, in his opinion, for viewers — something like Abbott Elementary is every bit a Hulu series even if it’s branded an ABC original. Is that how you see things, too? When you develop shows now, do you draw lines between platforms?
It’s just trying to do what TV has done from the earliest days, which is capture the broadest possible audience. When Dancing With the Stars moved exclusively to Disney+, that was an interesting experiment. What we found was we actually alienated a huge part of the audience who was used to just watching this on ABC. These are linear viewers, and there still are a lot of them. But when we moved it back to ABC, we didn’t pull it from Disney+. So now it airs on ABC and Disney+, and next day on Hulu, and you’re meeting those viewers where they are. The show feels like it did 20 years ago when we premiered it. By that I mean everybody is watching it. They’re watching it together, but they’re watching it on different platforms. That’s our superpower at this company — we can cater to all those audiences. So when we’re looking at these shows, we ask, “Is there a way to do that?” It’s situational, obviously. But that’s sort of the greatest thing you can do, certainly at Disney.
Any upcoming shows fit that criteria? Maybe something in the development pipeline?
One of the things we’re really excited about is a new show that has all the elements of a great elimination competition series but will be focused on MMA fighters. And instead of a tribal council determining who is going home, it will be a fight between the bottom two. It’s very early days, but it’s one where we could look at doing it on multiple platforms with our partners at ESPN.
In the last couple of years, Disney has taken to giving some Hulu scripted originals windows on the broadcast network. You recently tried to do something similar with Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, which aired on Monday nights after The Bachelor just a few months after its Hulu drop. When it was announced, I thought it was a very smart move and was pretty sure it would do well. But it actually didn’t. Were you surprised it didn’t do better?
I was with you: I was very excited by the prospect. But if you look at it historically, The Bachelor is one of those shows where it is very hard to find a lead-out. That’s a very specific type of show, and quite frankly, a lot of times, when people are finished watching The Bachelor, what they want to do is talk about The Bachelor. So I don’t know if we would find any one sort of smoking gun as to why Mormon Wives didn’t perform better. It could be because it was 10 o’clock. The Bachelor also was down from last season. Maybe it would have performed differently had this been a year ago? I also think the die-hard people who wanted to watch it already did, and those who wanted to rewatch it could do so on Hulu. I still hope we picked up some new people ahead of season two. If we were to try it again, we would look at, “Do we have extra content? Is there a bit of a bonus episode?”
So you’ve been at Disney since 2003, or nearly the entirety of the modern reality-TV era. Dancing With the Stars hadn’t even debuted yet. You’ve done so many shows at ABC over the decades, but since you added Hulu to your portfolio in 2021, it seems as if Disney unscripted has been unchained a bit. You’re now able to do shows like The Kardashians and Mormon Wives, which I’m pretty sure you couldn’t have gotten green-lit at ABC ten years ago. With Hulu, it’s like you finally are able to do cablelike shows that were never possible for network prime time.
That’s a really good analogy. I have been here a long time. I remember that we did have a discussion about Real Housewives before it went to Bravo. I think we may have been one of the first places, if not the first place, they pitched it because the origin of that was The Real Desperate Housewives. And at the time, Desperate Housewives was sort of a crown jewel for ABC. Nobody wanted to do anything that could potentially cannibalize that or hurt that show, and to your point, docuseries never really worked at ABC. Had we had Hulu 15 or 20 years ago, I think you would have seen a show about the pro dancers of Dancing With the Stars and their personal lives. I think you could’ve seen the Secret Lives of Bachelor Wives. That’s something we had kicked around for a long time with ABC, and it just felt like it wasn’t right. So to have Hulu now is great. We can use it for brand extensions or, in the case of Mormon Wives, an entirely new franchise starter.
One of the first big things you did during your Hula era was launch a new show with the Kardashians. You announced last month that you’re developing a second series, Calabasas: Behind the Gates. Safe to say you’re happy with how the deal to bring the family to Disney has worked out? I think there was a bit of skepticism when it was announced.
It has worked to a massive degree. Our Hulu reality brand is absolutely the house that the Kardashians built, and as you know, their houses are all beautiful. To people who sort of doubted whether it would work, I would say: Doubt them at your own peril. They were very purposeful, and they said, “Before it’s too late, we really need to move into streaming. We need to be more premium.” They wanted this show to look and feel a certain way, and I think that’s why that show is successful. If this was simply taking Keeping Up With the Kardashians and not elevating it, I don’t know that it would’ve worked to the degree it has worked.
You’re sort of a public ambassador to the Bachelor universe, in that you’ve used your Twitter feed over the years to pump up the shows and talk about episodes and casting. The franchise has taken some hits recently, with some key producers exiting and even talk that the main show might take an extended break. Give me your state of the union address on the health of Bachelor Nation.
Look, when you’re over two decades old, you’ve had better days and you’ve had worse days. I think that the show has had better days, but I am not at all concerned, because I will say the people who make and control this show care about this show. And that’s why there’s been a few hiccups: We just want to make sure that we are doing this show at the best possible level it can be done. This is a show that means so much to the people who watch it. People will say, “I watched this show with my mom” or “This show got me over a heartbreak” or “It was one of the first things I enjoyed after somebody close to me passed away.” We have a duty to the audience to make sure that, if they’re going to give us 24 hours a season, we are delivering the best possible version of The Bachelor. There’s always going to be growing pains, but there’s definitely better days ahead. The one thing we’ve learned about with The Bachelor is that you’re always just a season or two away from roaring right back, and I think that when we have this conversation a year from now, that’s where The Bachelor will be.
You’re going to have The Golden Bachelor back again, I assume this fall. You just announced Bachelor in Paradise returning this summer. In terms of a main Bachelor or Bachelorette, how long do you plan to rest those shows? Will they be returning soon?
This is not something that’s gone into the Disney Vault for seven years. We will make sure that when it comes back, it will be purposeful and done well, but I think that’s very, very, very soon.
So, you think it could still air next season?
Oh, yeah. Reports of The Bachelor’s demise have been completely blown out of proportion. I think, absolutely, you will see The Bachelor next season. There's nothing official yet, but I would be stunned. Again, there’s been a few little bumps in the road this past year, but Bachelor Nation still cares deeply about this show. They would riot if we didn’t have The Bachelor next season.
With another season of The Golden Bachelor coming this fall, can you give me a status update on that part of Bachelor Nation? We’ve heard some reports that casting can be difficult for this iteration.
I have not found it necessarily difficult to cast. I guess in some ways it’s more challenging than the big show because they’re in different places in their lives. But for the most part, no, it’s been fine. Because this show still is in its nascent stage, what we ask a lot is: What type of stories are we telling? One of the things that’s refreshing about Mel, our new Golden Bachelor, is that he’s a divorcé. I don’t want this to just be the poor widower who never thinks they can love again and then they find out that they can. We’re looking to tell everybody’s stories in that age demographic.
Beyond the new season, any other plans to expand the Golden universe?
We did announce we’re having some Golden cast members go to Bachelor in Paradise. Viewers have fallen in love with the cast of these shows, and they just want to see more of them. So I don’t know if there’s necessarily spinoffs, but certainly integrating them as much as we can into the Bachelor world or in other places. At some point down the line, you may see somebody on Dancing With the Stars. The cast members on these shows are an untapped commodity that we would love to do more with.
The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives has pushed the envelope a bit for Disney unscripted. But overall, the shows you’re making for Hulu haven’t pushed the brand that far out of what we’ve come to expect for reality shows. You’re still often bleeping curse words, for instance, where a Netflix or Prime might leave them in. And you’re not doing concepts that could be considered controversial, the way someone like Mike Darnell, the godfather of Fox reality TV, did years ago. Is there room for a Dark Rob Mills to emerge, for you to get in touch with your inner Darnell? Or because it’s Disney, are you limited in what you can do?
No, I think absolutely there’s room. I’m champing at the bit to do that, as a matter of fact. I just want to make sure when we do it, it’s not just for the sake of doing it. But look at from the top of this company: Bob Iger put Twin Peaks on the air. At that point, ABC historically was family comedies and kind of soapy dramas. That was unlike anything anyone had seen on any kind of broadcast TV. And Dana Walden was sort of a pioneer both at Fox’s studio and then at the network of things that were edgy. So would we do that? Absolutely. When you have people like that leading the company, they are champions of risk-taking. It’s just got to feel right.
So, the producers of FBoy Island should give Rob Mills a call?
[Laughs] I actually think that wasn’t super-edgy. I don’t know what that is for reality television, but if we can find, whatever you want to call it, the FX version or what NYPD Blue was back in the day or whatever it is, 100 percent we’d do it.
Even beyond what you do at Disney, I want to get your take on where we are in storytelling for unscripted shows in 2025. I’ve been covering the industry as long as you’ve been making shows for it, and I remember how blown away I was watching the first episodes of Survivor and The Bachelor. It felt groundbreaking. These days, even when a platform comes up with a show that feels a little innovative, the language of reality-TV production feels stuck. We get confessionals shot a certain way or a lot of the same story beats — “Wow, can you believe how amazing this mansion is?” Do you think the production design of unscripted TV has become too stale? Do you think there’s a way to shake things up?
Well, after hearing you say that, I think we probably need to do it more. It’s hard, especially because, to your point, this is now a mature genre after 25 years. Survivor really was, like, Wow, we’ve never seen anything like this before. This is incredible. And the people who were producing these shows all came from different genres: Some were documentary filmmakers, some were newscasters, some were frustrated writers. They came from different points of view. And now you have people who have worked in unscripted for 25 years. So there are those certain guidelines now. You can basically go to Ikea and build a competition reality show. And so, I think, yes, we need to look at how you can change, but not just for the sake of doing it.
You talk to people who read scripts for a living, and they say, “If this doesn’t grab me by page two, I’m done.” We’re in a world with streaming where after a couple minutes, you can tap out. So you need something that gets viewers to look up from their phones — that says Wow, this is something different. And I do think it is something we should be messaging more to producers.
One way to innovate is to bring in newer voices from untraditional places, and it does seem like you’re doing that with Alex Cooper. You’ve signed her up to make shows for Disney TV, and she’s also going to be the subject of a docuseries for Hulu. How did she get on your radar? And what does she bring to the table, beyond her huge following?
If you work in this side of the business, you knew Alex Cooper was sort of the preeminent voice in this space. We very purposefully over the last few years made overtures. We talked to Alex and her husband and partner in Unwell, Matt, and it was sort of like, “Look, take your time because we know everything you do is purposeful. But you have a home here when you’re ready.” So when they were ready, there was, hopefully, a trust factor there.
I also think the audience of Hulu is directly aligned with her audience as well, both scripted and unscripted. And her brain is like a supercomputer and watches all of this stuff, puts it in, and says, “Here’s what works. Here’s what doesn’t.” So she knew all of that coming in and pitched a show where all of this stuff had been pressure tested.
You’re talking about Overboard for Love. It feels like it’s going to be a blend of Below Deck and The Bachelor, but also just great ocean vibes?
All of the above. It’ll probably be a hybrid of all of that. The question Alex asks and we ask, is, “Okay, I already have those shows. Now, how do I have room for one more?” So there will definitely be new elements. And she is involved in every single aspect, from the formatting to the casting to the location to the actual boat.
And when will it premiere?
It will be early next year, so we’re still very early days, but we’re obviously very excited about it.
Earlier, you referenced the overlap between Alex’s audience and the audience watching Hulu unscripted. Can you give me a better sense of who those viewers are and how you’re trying to speak to them?
Well, beyond The Kardashians and Mormon Wives, we’re also an extension of ABC, which also is a very upscale audience, but also probably skews more female. And there is nobody better on that than Alex Cooper, who is sort of like the pied piper for millennial women. So that’s who our audience is. We would love to broaden that out as well. I don’t know what the demographic skew is on a show like The Traitors, but we want to do more shows like that. We definitely want to be a little bit something for everyone, especially if we’re doing all of the unscripted for Hulu. But right now, if you look at the things that are really, really working — Kardashians, Mormon Wives, and then our ABC programming from Bachelor to Dancing to Idol to Shark Tank — it’s a very upscale audience and more female than male.
I have to ask about one of my favorite parts of your portfolio: game shows. First of all, you announced this week that Match Game is being rebooted and Martin Short will host. That’s a huge get. How did it happen?
Well, he’s somebody that we had heard anecdotally that if the right opportunity came along, he would be interested — which, of course, you’re like, “Are you kidding me?” But, quite frankly, one of my favorite characters of his of all time is Jackie Rogers Jr., so I know he knows how to host a game show. When the opportunity for Match Game came about, it definitely felt like, “This is the guy — let’s go to Marty. Maybe it’s a shot in the dark, but let’s see.” And then he engaged very quickly. The timing was right, as he’ll have just wrapped season five of Only Murders in the Building. And the best thing about these games is, this is not his entire summer. It’s a week. To have one of the greatest comedic talents who is living right now doing Match Game is a true “pinch me” moment.
Did you talk to him, or internally, about whether he should host or just sort of be a permanent panelist, the way Drew Barrymore is the center square on Hollywood Squares? I ask because when the news was announced this week, I had some folks on social media ask whether someone with as much comedic energy might feel restrained holding the host’s mic rather than running wild on the panel. I see that, but also: He can still be the full Martin Short as host, right?
I think you can do both. If you’re going to have a star like Marty as part of the show, being a panelist would’ve made sense if he was paired with somebody — like if it was him and Steve Martin. But look, quite frankly, he can do whatever he wants. He can host and panel for all I care. [Laughs] I’m just thrilled he’s doing the show.
I’m pretty sure Mr. Short had a vote in all this!
He actually said he wanted to panel, and we said, “No! You’ll host, or nothing.”
So, staying on the topic of game shows: It will be ten years this summer since you premiered Celebrity Family Feud. I remember people at other networks joking that ABC was becoming the Game Show Network, because once Feud became an instant hit, you started reviving other classic shows. Fast-forward a decade, and not only are many of your game shows still thriving, every other network has gotten into the game, pun intended. That’s obviously vindication for your strategy, but how do you make sure these shows don’t feel too generic and become lower-cost filler?
We have to make sure that none of them feel repetitive, that they all are being made by people who actually do care about this. One of the unsung heroes of our game-show strategy is Press Your Luck. All people remembered about that show back in the day was the Whammy, which was sort of very fun. But when you watch our endgame, it’s telling a story of, “Here’s why the things you’re playing for mean so much to you,” and that’s why I think that is as powerful as any other story you’d see, scripted or unscripted. So really, it’s how do you make these shows resonate beyond being just great lean-back-and-watch entertainment? We definitely want to do that. The other thing we’ve realized is we actually have a kind of great library of Disney-owned game shows that have been lying dormant.
Like Win, Lose or Draw? I keep hearing rumblings you might want to revive it.
Yeah, that’s one. We want to do it when it’s right and it would feel kind of unique in the marketplace. And I think there’s still a lot of nostalgia for that. I also think now that we’ve exhausted all of these ’70s game shows, we’ve got to start looking at the ’80s game shows.
I think one of the reasons shows like Feud and The Price Is Right have done so well in prime time is because they still air daily in syndication and people get to watch a lot of episodes. Have you thought of maybe doing a quasi-syndication model for Hulu? Amazon has done that with courtroom shows and Judy Justice. Why not make a daily game show for Hulu?
It’s an interesting prospect. But it’s about figuring out where game shows fit in the streaming ecosphere, because there is so much premium content there. How do you make somebody say: Okay, instead of watching Paradise, I’m going to watch whatever this game show is? I wouldn’t want to do it just to do it, but if we could figure that out, that would be a huge box check.
Before we go, I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask for status updates on some of your franchises that haven’t been given new-season orders recently: Holey Moley, Claim to Fame, and your Live in Front of a Studio Audience specials. Any chance those will be back?
We miss those shows, too. The beauty is, nothing ever really goes away, certainly in unscripted, We don’t have casts that we need to worry about being under contract or kids getting older. Everything you pointed to are all linear shows for broadcast, and a pie can only get so big. I think it’ll be about either moving when that opportunity comes up or seeing if they would work if we move them to other platforms.
My final question is one that network entertainment presidents used to get asked all the time: Is there an unscripted show or franchise you wish you’d have done, or wish you could steal away from another platform?
I am obviously envious of the success Love Island is having. I remember thinking when it first aired on CBS, This is not going to work, because it didn’t necessarily seem like a CBS show, but also the British format was, you watch every day like a soap opera. They have found that when it runs on Peacock every afternoon, if you are a Love Islander, you need to watch that show. So for us, we’re asking, “What are those things that we can do to get people there every day?” That show comes the closest to doing that, and that’s one of the things I definitely am thinking about all the time.
